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HomeHomeDiscussionsDiscussionsiFly General Di...iFly General Di...iFly reported altitude delta with ADS-B out trafficiFly reported altitude delta with ADS-B out traffic
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1/13/2017 7:14 PM
 

Flying today with ver. 9.8 I noticed an interesting situation. After the flight while I was on the ramp, there were a couple of ADS-B out equipped aircraft in the pattern, so I was able to see them "direct" With one of the planes on the runway, as can be seen in the attached photo, iFly was reporting him to be 600 ft. below me? (the minus sign is under my wing) The other aircraft was showing 400 ft above me when he was on downwind, while he was probably closer to 1000 ft above me.

FWIW, the difference between pressure altitude and barometric altitude was about 600 ft today.

Is there a difference between the way ADS-B out equipped traffic and TIS-B traffic is handled by the system or by iFly? When the system broadcasts TIS-B information are they correcting pressure altitude for barometric pressure?

Thanks for any insight


C177RG: iFly 720, Stratux 978/1090 ADS-B in, AHRS, BMP, Stratus ESG ADS-B out. RV-3: 8" Samsung Tab A, Stratux 978/1090 ADS-B in, AHRS, BMP, Stratus ESG ADS-B out.
 
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1/13/2017 10:37 PM
 

Wow, a brand new CAP 182...

The ADS-B Out transmission includes a lot of information, including the length and width of the aircraft! It broadcasts 2 different altitudes - pressure altitude and geometric altitude. I would assume that what ADS-B In systems use (and display on the screen) is barometric pressure altitude, so that it more closely aligns with Mode-C aircraft. That would explain the differences you saw today. I got this information from:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/7e82c5df933b37588625775800671337!OpenDocument

which I hope is current and accurate.


Jeff Nokomis Clark, Mooney M20G, iFly app on ASUS ZenPad Z8s, ASUS ZenFone AR, ASUS Windows 10 tablet, Stratux ADS-B w AHRS
 
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1/14/2017 9:41 AM
 

Jeff, I'm pretty sure that you are correct in that what I saw yesterday was a comparison my geometric altitude with the target's pressure altitude. Since ADS-B out traffic broadcasts geometric altitude as well, it seems like that would be the one to calculate the difference with.

In the case of TIS-B information, I have been unable to find out if the target's mode C pressure altitude is corrected for the current barometic pressure before broadcast. I know that ATC has the corrected altitude info available on their screen.


C177RG: iFly 720, Stratux 978/1090 ADS-B in, AHRS, BMP, Stratus ESG ADS-B out. RV-3: 8" Samsung Tab A, Stratux 978/1090 ADS-B in, AHRS, BMP, Stratus ESG ADS-B out.
 
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1/14/2017 10:52 AM
 

If I understand what you're asking, here's my answer:

FACT: A Mode C altitude broadcast is never corrected for changes in pressure at the aircraft. It is always broadcast as if the barometric pressure is 29.92, and the ATC screen then does any correcting on THEIR end.

My ASSUMPTION: That's why ADS-B also broadcasts an uncorrected altitude (29.92) - so that ADS-B OUT and Mode C traffic altitudes can be apples-to-apples once corrected on ATC's screen. Since uncertified ADS-B IN systems don't typically have access to pressure altitude, they can only tell you their own geometric altitude and thus are prone to fairly large discrepencies (i.e. 600ft) vs certified Mode C and ADS-B systems.

I see what you're saying - since both altitudes are available from the ADS-B broadcast, why not use the geometric altitude for the comparison... good question. There is nothing in the airspace system that is measured or dependent on the geometric geoid thingy, so maybe the GPS geometric altitude is only broadcast so that the FAA can verify the integrity of the GPS altitude report vs pressure altitude report. Or perhaps there's a standard in the ADS-B world that says always use the pressure altitude, since it would keep the apples-to-apples integrity intact on advanced systems that also display Mode C and Mode S targets. I imagine a homebuilt Stratux box could be easily reprogrammed to use geometric altitude, but then it would be the only one in the game doing so.

Disclaimer: My info comes from The Google so it must be true. might be wrong. ;)


Jeff Nokomis Clark, Mooney M20G, iFly app on ASUS ZenPad Z8s, ASUS ZenFone AR, ASUS Windows 10 tablet, Stratux ADS-B w AHRS
 
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1/14/2017 12:02 PM
 

Thanks Jeff. Yesterday was an eye opener for me! If it turns out that TIS-B is broadcasting pressure altitude, why couldn't an ADS-B in system without acess to pressure altitude use the current altimeter setting (which it usually does have when airborne) to eliminate that part of the target delta error? That said, I know that GPS altitude and indicated altitude have their own difference.


C177RG: iFly 720, Stratux 978/1090 ADS-B in, AHRS, BMP, Stratus ESG ADS-B out. RV-3: 8" Samsung Tab A, Stratux 978/1090 ADS-B in, AHRS, BMP, Stratus ESG ADS-B out.
 
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